5 peso coin. Last Sunday I was bored and felt like making the 1 hour drive North from Dallas to visit WinStar and play some dice Craps. I had never wanted to play the card version they had previously, but now with dice I was down for it. Bankroll: $400; Table Bets: Min $10 Max $500 + $1 Ante every comeout roll; Walkaway: At -$300 or 3 hours whichever came first.
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I think the state is trying to get its money rather than let the casino get it. This appears to be a 'the money goes into a pool, the state takes its cut and then the casino can do any math it wants to do'. This avoids letting the casino be 'creative' prior to the state's getting its pint.
Live casino craps game filmed at the Hard Rock Casino in Tulsa, Oklahoma. This is not your typical craps game. In Oklahoma dice are prohibited, so they use. Review of WinStar World Casino and Resort Reviewed June 28, 2014 Some friends and I made the hour drive from Dallas after we learned they had finally brought craps to the Winstar. Choctaw has had it for a while but it is played with cards instead of dice so we were expecting something similar at Winstar.
I'll be there in a couple weeks for an event, and I'll try to get some more info on how it will all work (if no one here gets there before me).
I'm going to one of the casinos to check it out this weekend.
Craps and Roulette are now live in Oklahoma.
I'm going to one of the casinos to check it out this weekend.
Roulette is live at Riverwind Casino, but craps isn't. I only observed for a few seconds as I walked by but I didn't notice any 50-cent chips which was unusual as I've never seen any Chickasaw gaming property waive the ante. (Perhaps there is a loophole and the ante only applied when their version of roulette was card based?)
I'll be at Winstar (another Chickasaw property) the 22nd and 23rd and will check on what is available there if anyone is interested.
Newcastle, Riverwind, and Winstar Roulette
Ante $1
Min Bet $5
Min Buy-in $20
Max Bets
$250 on outside 2 to 1 bets
$10 any way to the number inside
The following sign was at Riverwind only -
'Any spin that does not complete 4 rotations around the wheel will be considered a No Spin'
Winstar was the only one of the group that was setting up for craps and I saw 3 tables.
If after paying the ante, the player has a winning 7/11 or losing 2,3,12, then the player must pay another ante to post the next pass line or DP bet.
A push on the DP is a decision and will require another ante.
After the ante is paid, if a point is established, the bettor may make any additional bets, whether the bets be Come bets, place bets, Hardways, field, etc, and may continue to post additional wagers, without paying another ante, until the player has a 7 out.
The game will be house banked, not player banked.
I have spoken to quite a few players from central Texas and surrounding areas who will not be deterred by this ante requirement. Their logic is that they would spend more money than the ante by flying to Las Vegas or driving to Shreveport, LA.
Newcastle, Riverwind, and Winstar Roulette
Ante $1
Min Bet $5
Min Buy-in $20
Those minimums aren't bad at all for Roulette, even with the ante. Still terrible odds, but at least it's cheap.
Newcastle, Riverwind, and Winstar Roulette
Ante $1
Min Bet $5
Min Buy-in $20
Max Bets
$500 on outside 1 to 1 bets
$250 on outside 2 to 1 bets
$10 any way to the number inside
You think that's bad? $5 on a single number (the payout is now 175-6, or just over 29-1) has a house edge of 20.61%.
Keep in mind that these numbers are based on making only one bet per spin.
According to the person in charge at Winstar, there will be an ante per come out roll. The ante is $1.
If after paying the ante, the player has a winning 7/11 or losing 2,3,12, then the player must pay another ante to post the next pass line or DP bet.
A push on the DP is a decision and will require another ante.
After the ante is paid, if a point is established, the bettor may make any additional bets, whether the bets be Come bets, place bets, Hardways, field, etc, and may continue to post additional wagers, without paying another ante, until the player has a 7 out.
1. Does everybody pay the ante on the comeout, or just the shooter?
2. If (1) is 'everybody,' then can somebody avoid the ante by not betting on comeout rolls?
3. If (2) is 'no,' then how do they enforce this? Do the dealers put markers in front of the players that have paid the ante?
Introduction
In California the dice alone may not determine the outcome in craps. So a combination of dice and playing cards, or cards alone, are used. There are numerous ways this is done. Here are some methods I am aware of.
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I think the state is trying to get its money rather than let the casino get it. This appears to be a 'the money goes into a pool, the state takes its cut and then the casino can do any math it wants to do'. This avoids letting the casino be 'creative' prior to the state's getting its pint.
Live casino craps game filmed at the Hard Rock Casino in Tulsa, Oklahoma. This is not your typical craps game. In Oklahoma dice are prohibited, so they use. Review of WinStar World Casino and Resort Reviewed June 28, 2014 Some friends and I made the hour drive from Dallas after we learned they had finally brought craps to the Winstar. Choctaw has had it for a while but it is played with cards instead of dice so we were expecting something similar at Winstar.
I'll be there in a couple weeks for an event, and I'll try to get some more info on how it will all work (if no one here gets there before me).
I'm going to one of the casinos to check it out this weekend.
Craps and Roulette are now live in Oklahoma.
I'm going to one of the casinos to check it out this weekend.
Roulette is live at Riverwind Casino, but craps isn't. I only observed for a few seconds as I walked by but I didn't notice any 50-cent chips which was unusual as I've never seen any Chickasaw gaming property waive the ante. (Perhaps there is a loophole and the ante only applied when their version of roulette was card based?)
I'll be at Winstar (another Chickasaw property) the 22nd and 23rd and will check on what is available there if anyone is interested.
Newcastle, Riverwind, and Winstar Roulette
Ante $1
Min Bet $5
Min Buy-in $20
Max Bets
$500 on outside 1 to 1 bets
$250 on outside 2 to 1 bets
$10 any way to the number inside
The following sign was at Riverwind only -
'Any spin that does not complete 4 rotations around the wheel will be considered a No Spin'
Winstar was the only one of the group that was setting up for craps and I saw 3 tables.
If after paying the ante, the player has a winning 7/11 or losing 2,3,12, then the player must pay another ante to post the next pass line or DP bet.
A push on the DP is a decision and will require another ante.
After the ante is paid, if a point is established, the bettor may make any additional bets, whether the bets be Come bets, place bets, Hardways, field, etc, and may continue to post additional wagers, without paying another ante, until the player has a 7 out.
The game will be house banked, not player banked.
I have spoken to quite a few players from central Texas and surrounding areas who will not be deterred by this ante requirement. Their logic is that they would spend more money than the ante by flying to Las Vegas or driving to Shreveport, LA.
Newcastle, Riverwind, and Winstar Roulette
Ante $1
Min Bet $5
Min Buy-in $20
Those minimums aren't bad at all for Roulette, even with the ante. Still terrible odds, but at least it's cheap.
Newcastle, Riverwind, and Winstar Roulette
Ante $1
Min Bet $5
Min Buy-in $20
Max Bets
$500 on outside 1 to 1 bets
$250 on outside 2 to 1 bets
$10 any way to the number inside
You think that's bad? $5 on a single number (the payout is now 175-6, or just over 29-1) has a house edge of 20.61%.
Keep in mind that these numbers are based on making only one bet per spin.
Or does 'ante' not mean what I think it means - a fee for the privilege of betting, since this is how the casino makes its money?
According to the person in charge at Winstar, there will be an ante per come out roll. The ante is $1.
If after paying the ante, the player has a winning 7/11 or losing 2,3,12, then the player must pay another ante to post the next pass line or DP bet.
A push on the DP is a decision and will require another ante.
After the ante is paid, if a point is established, the bettor may make any additional bets, whether the bets be Come bets, place bets, Hardways, field, etc, and may continue to post additional wagers, without paying another ante, until the player has a 7 out.
1. Does everybody pay the ante on the comeout, or just the shooter?
2. If (1) is 'everybody,' then can somebody avoid the ante by not betting on comeout rolls?
3. If (2) is 'no,' then how do they enforce this? Do the dealers put markers in front of the players that have paid the ante?
Introduction
In California the dice alone may not determine the outcome in craps. So a combination of dice and playing cards, or cards alone, are used. There are numerous ways this is done. Here are some methods I am aware of.
Agua Caliente
Twelve cards are used, an ace through six from two separate decks, with different color back sides. The cards will be shuffled and spread across the table face down. The first card of each color from one end shall be used to represent the roll. The odds are the same as with dice.
Barona
Six cards are used, numbered one to six. They are randomly placed in six positions on the table. The roll of two dice will determine which card(s) are turned over, that shall deterine the outcome for betting purposes. With each new shooter, the cards are re-arranged. The odds are the same as conventional craps.
Fantasy Springs
Same method as the Agua Caliente.
Harrah's
Two separate six-card decks, one red and one green, are used. Each shoe consists one each of ranks A, 2, 3, 4, 5, and 6. Aces count as one, all other ranks count according to its pip value. Six cards are dealt from each shoe. Two ordinary dice are thrown, one red and one green. The outcome of the dice determine which cards are turned over, which represent the roll. The odds are the same as conventional craps.
Normandie
Two partial decks are mixed together, each consisting of all four suits ranked ace to six. So, there are 48 cards total. Two cards are drawn without replacement. If they are the same suit, then there is no action. Otherwise, the two cards represent the roll. This is mathematically equivalent to using dice. There is also a 'No Call' bet, which pays 3 to 1 on two cards of the same suit. The house edge on that bet is 6.38%. As usual with the Los Angeles county casinos, the player must also pay about a 1% fee on all bets.
Pala
The following equipment is used: (A) A red die numbered with three 1's, and three 4's, (B) a blue die numbered with three 2's, and three 3's, and (C) A 36-card deck featuring all possible permutations of two dice. Two cards are drawn at random and placed face down over red and blue regions of the table. The dice are thrown. If the red die is higher then the red card is turned over and used as the roll, if the blue die is higher then the blue card is used. Note that there can be no ties. Also the blue die is irrelevant. A 1 on the red die will always lose to the blue die, and a 4 will always win. The odds are the same as conventional craps.
The 'Super Field' pays if both cards are the 1-1 and 6-6, in either order. Wins pay 500 to 1. The probability of winning is 0.154%, for a house edge of 22.685%.
Pechanga
Pechanga currently follows the Barona method (at least as of 7/26/16). They have previously used other methods so please don't write in to correct me unless you have very current information.
Pauma
A 73-card deck is used, consisting of 12 each of cards ace to six, and one joker. Two cards are drawn to determine the roll. If the first card is the joker, there is no action, and two new cards are drawn. If the second card is the joker, it shall match the first card. The odds are the same as conventional craps.
The joker side bet pays 60 FOR 1 if the first card is a joker. The probability of winning is 1.389%, for a house edge of 16.67%.
The four suit bets, one for each suit, win if both cards are the suit specified, and pays 14 FOR 1. The probability of winning is 5.822%, for a house edge of 18.493%.
San Manuel
Same procedure as Viejas, except 312 cards are in the shuffler and they call it just 'craps.'
Sycuan
The Sycuan follows the same procedure as Barona.
Viejas
The game is dealt at a blackjack-size table called 'Card Craps.' I'm told a 264-card shoe is used, consisting of 44 cards each of ranks ace to six. They start with five 54-card decks (9 cards each numbered 1 to 6), and then remove one of each face (5×54-6=264), to accomodate the shuffler. Two cards are drawn to represent the roll. Due to the effect of non-replacement, the odds will be slightly different from conventional craps.
The maximum win on odds bets is $1,000. If the player wishes to get that limit, with 10X odds after a pass or come bet, then he should not bet more than $10 on a pass or come bet, and $100 on a don't pass or don't come.
For more information, see my page on Card Craps.
Southern California Odds Survey
Here is what I know of the odds allowed in the casinos of southern California.
San Diego County Craps Survey
| Casino | Odds Offered | House Edge | Last Surveyed |
|---|---|---|---|
| Agua Caliente | 3x-4x-5x | 0.37% | Sep. 2013 |
| Augustine | No craps | N/A | Sep. 2013 |
| Barona | 5x | 0.33% | Dec. 2008 |
| Chumash | ? | ? | Never |
| Fantasy Springs | 3x-4x-5x | 0.37% | Sep. 2013 |
| Golden Acorn | No craps | N/A | Dec. 2008 |
| Harrah's | 2x | 0.57% | Dec. 2008 |
| La Posta | No craps | N/A | Dec. 2008 |
| Morongo | No craps | N/A | Sep. 2013 |
| Pala | 5x | 0.33% | Dec. 2008 |
| Pauma | 3x-4x-5x | 0.37% | Dec. 2008 |
| Pechanga | 10x | 0.18% | May 2014 |
| Santa Ysabel | No craps | N/A | Dec. 2008 |
| Soboba | ? | ? | Never |
| Spa | No craps | N/A | Sep. 2013 |
| Spotlight 29 | No craps | N/A | Sep. 2013 |
| Sycuan | 5x | 0.33% | Dec. 2008 |
| Valley View | No craps | N/A | Dec. 2008 |
| Viejas* | 10x | 0.18% | Dec. 2008 |
* The Viejas 10X odds game has a maximum odds bet of $600.
'3x-4x-5x' means the player can bet 3 times his pass/come bet with a point of 4 or 10, 4 times with a 5 or 9, and 5 times with a 6 or 8. Assuming the player always takes the maximum odds, under this rule, his odds win will always be 6 times his pass line bet. The house edge column is the combined house edge between the pass/come bet and full odds.
Disclaimer: The Barona Casino hired me to perform surveys of San Diego casinos for backjack, roulette, and craps. The table above summarizes my findings.
Oklahoma
It seems that Oklahoma also has card craps. Here is what little I know about it.
Winstar
The Winstar uses a 36-card deck, one card for each two-dice combination. It is my understanding that the cards look ordinary, except for a bar code, which corresponds to the dice roll. Lotto draw results.
Other Games Surveyed in San DiegoWinstar Casino And Resort Oklahoma
Internal Links
Winstar Casino Dice Game
- How the house edge for each bet is derived, in brief.
- The house edge of all the major bets on both a per-bet made and per-roll basis
- Dice Control Experiments. The results of two experiments on skillful dice throwing.
- Dice Control Advantage. The player advantage, assuming he can influence the dice.
- Craps variants. Alternative rules and bets such as the Fire Bet, Crapless Craps, and Card Craps.
- California craps. How craps is played in California using playing cards.
- Play Craps. Craps game using cards at the Viejas casino in San Diego.
- Number of Rolls Table. Probability of a shooter lasting 1 to 200 rolls before a seven-out.
- Ask the Wizard. See craps questions I've answered about:
- Simple Craps game. My simple Java craps game.
External Links
- Las Vegas craps survey — The max odds bet allowed at each casino.
Winstar Casino Oklahoma Tx
Written by: Michael Shackleford